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A question I never had to ask before,
but which is highly topical in today's Sweden:

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What do you do with a child
who is also a murderer?

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Most people agree
that there must be punishment for crime.

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But what to achieve with the punishment
is more unclear, and who will be punished.

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welcome here,
Minister of Justice Gunnar Strömmer–

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– the artist and the producer
Simon Superti–

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– the author and the lawyer
Malin Persson Giolito–

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–writer Hanne Kjöller–

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-and actor Ayan Ahmed,
known from Snabba cash among others.

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Gunnar, I'll start with you.

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The last three years
the number of shootings has been halved.

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But only since last year can you see
that 52 children, who are therefore under the age of 15–

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– have been involved
in murder or murder plans.

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One of the measures
as you and your government propose–

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– is to lower the age of criminal liability,
minimum age for imprisonment, to 13 years.

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How will it be done?

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It has been around for a few years
a discussion about the 15–17-year-olds–

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-those who today are criminally competent, and
an experience that today's system–

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-fail to prevent the young people
to end up in serious crime.

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Once you judge them
to a punishment–

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- today you can be judged
to closed youth care at Sis home–

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- then the results will be quite terrible.

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Nine out of ten of the young people who sit
at the Sis homes in closed youth care–

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-who have connections to the gangs,
relapses into serious crime.

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The background is a rather broken one
system when it comes to young people.

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We have discussed replacing it with
youth departments in correctional services–

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– youth prisons for 15–17-year-olds,
and it has quite wide support.

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But what has created debate,
above all, the question is:

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What do we do when even younger children are
involved in murder and murder plots?

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Should the 13–14-year-olds
stay in this system–

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– as broken down for the 15-17 year olds?

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They are not in that system.
They are not in that system today.

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There happens a... I don't even know
at which end should I start?

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Why do they reoffend?

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They are involved in extremely serious
crime that kidnaps the children.

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You don't solve that problem
by sending them–

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–to a correctional facility which
is not prepared to take care of them.

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It's clear as hell
that they should not be in prison.

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The problem is that almost heal
society's social resources–

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– are busy with children
who committed very serious crimes.

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But is the solution
to put 13-year-olds in prison?

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It depends on what you want to solve.
That is not the answer to the question:

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How should we avoid?
How should we prevent?

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-Not by lowering to 13.
- No, the answer is not locking up.

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I'm just answering the question.
Then you are welcome to leave.

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Firstly, we must protect the environment
society against serious violence.

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It's just a reality.
It's a pretty painful realization–

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– that 13–14-year-olds also, as we said,
now subject to legal proceedings–

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-and involved in murder, murder plots,
shootings and explosions.

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168 prosecutors have signed
a thing and sent to you.

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The prison service doesn't like it.
You know this is coming.

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The correctional service does not want, every single one
child rights organization does not want.

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I don't know you, but I want to believe
that there is something good in you.

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I can't understand
that you are so calm–

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- when you talk about something so inhumane
like locking up 13 year olds.

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There is no consequence thinking
at that age.

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They think more about what their friends
and the older guys care about–

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-than they care about their punishment.

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What do you think should be done
with a 13 year old shooting?

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Give them a hug, for starters.

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Should they continue to walk the streets
and be able to shoot more?

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First, how many
of the 13-year-olds have shot?

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There are numbers on that.

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What should we do with them? It has
created a parallel society–

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- where people have been left in the lurch
for so many years.

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You avoid the question. What to do
with 13 year olds shooting?

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I am not a politician.
They need treatment, help, support.

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-Should they be locked up? Are they going somewhere?
- I think Ayan has a...

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They should not be locked up.

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I think somewhere
derails the whole discussion–

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- because it is believed that it solves the problem
to put 13-year-olds in Sis homes.

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Then it does not go against international
right, then it's not prison.

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I agree with you about
that it doesn't matter–

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– if you lock them up in a Sis home
or in a semi-open institution.

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That difference is not huge.

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But locking up a 13-year-old
at all–

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–is nothing like a civilized one
society must keep up.

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- It's insane, quite honestly.
- Then you have to find other solutions.

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What to do? You shouldn't
lock them up. We have to start there.

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We can talk about what it would cost–

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– to try to find a working one
lockout tool for a 13 year old–

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-at a corresponding Sis home.
It would cost a lot of money.

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They can be used in other ways
than building barbed wire around the children.

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It's terrible that we even
debating whether we should lock up children.

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I am happy to discuss your options,
but I don't hear any options.

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Say we lock the kids up
- what will happen?

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They will only make connections
with criminal members.

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When they come out, they have format
an identity as a criminal.

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Then they have a criminal record and
turns to his prison pals.

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It will just go around.
It's a vicious circle.

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- No one else can help them.
-No.

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- But if we start with Sis home...
-Wait, I wasn't ready.

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Putting them in jail
will only make things worse.

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Children need support, help
and role models.

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Children need people
who takes them under his wing.

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-Absolutely. I agree.
- The brain is not fully developed.

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Especially not the controlling part
consequence thinking or impulse control.

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We must treat them as children,
not as adults.

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We are talking about prisons.
The signal value...

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What does the correctional service say to a 13-year-old?
What then is the identity, criminal?

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The parallel society is getting longer.
It's getting harder to get hold of people.

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After five generations of criminals
is it the only way to survive.

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People don't know what it's like in these
the areas. You talk about "our children".

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People can live in great areas,
but the parents don't care about them.

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So they go out and find someone
who care about them.

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Have you met the 13-year-olds?
in these areas?

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No, but I have met criminals.

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-But not 13-year-old children?
- No, but on the other hand...

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Ayan, have you met them?
What is your picture?

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I've seen a few things.
I am from Järva.

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- You grew up in Järva?
-Yes.

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So my picture is more nuanced. It is
a socioeconomically vulnerable area–

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- but I have a more nuanced view of
Järva, which is usually not shown in the media.

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For me, the place is about
much better things.

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I just wonder,
because when i listen to this–

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- you react a little with your head
and a little with the stomach.

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I have children, one who is 13 years old.

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-You have children of about the same age?
-Three teenagers.

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It's hard not to imagine
their own children in this situation.

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Don't you feel it in your stomach?
that this feels wrong in some way?

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I've said it several times, and
it feels wrong even with 15-year-olds.

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-Good.
-And 16-year-olds.

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- Then why is this proposal coming?
- If I may explain.

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It is also wrong to over 50 children
are involved in murder and murder plots.

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At the other end are victims of crime.

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There are other children who have become
shot dead. That is also wrong.

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For 15–17-year-olds
have we had the system of Sis home–

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–which for various reasons has not worked–

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- and who crowded out all the other children
which should have received interventions earlier.

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It seems that it works too
children who are not involved in gangs.

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There is quite a lot of scrutiny
which shows that what is happening–

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-when the system will now handle children
who committed really serious crimes–

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–is that all other children are pushed aside,
and that is a huge problem.

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We are a country - find the resources.

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– The 13–14–year-olds are spinning around today.
-What are they doing? Tell me.

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They will only end up in environments there
crime is normalized even more.

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They will make connections.

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Before 1999
we put 15–17-year-olds in prison.

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2009 presented
Crime Prevention Council a report–

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-over how many of them relapsed
15-17-year-olds who were put in prison–

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–and how many of the 15-17-year-olds–

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-like after 1999, when the Sis homes
was built up, ended up in Sis home.

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There was a range of methodological
problem in this report–

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- but the picture was that things were getting better
for those who had been in prison–

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- than those who had been in Sis homes.
And Sis home, should I also say…

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I spoke to an investigator–

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– who have practiced
in 16 of Sweden's roughly 20 Sis homes–

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-and who told us that the Sis homes,
just so everyone knows...

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As for the gang criminals
that ends up there–

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-then there is barbed wire all around,
they are locked up.

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It is wall-mounted furniture that is
screwed or too heavy to lift.

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You must not have curtains
or flowers.

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You have a small room and are constant
monitored. One is deprived of liberty.

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But you are deprived of your freedom
in a different way.

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I have a hard time seeing the difference
the youth prisons that are now being built–

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-where there should be six children
each unit, a group of 13-14 year olds.

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They must have their own rooms, as in Sis homes,
but there they must have television.

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They don't always have that at Sis homes.
It's hard to tell the difference.

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- I agree to a certain extent.
-Why make prisons, then?

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The option as our current one
government has presented–

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– is to tell Kumla that they will
be prepared to receive 13-year-olds–

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-from 1 July this year.

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The youth prisons you talk about,
which should have groups of six–

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-and functioning school education,
and educators who are trained–

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– to take special care of these
vulnerable children, it does not exist today.

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I just have to say…
It will be in place.

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Three places are now preparing this.
That is the first.

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The second is:
What to do with time?

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It is a huge mobilization when
it concerns schooling, treatments–

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-activities adapted for young people,
small groups, high staff density.

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It should be teachers, psychologists,
people who are very experienced.

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The correctional service has protested itself
loudly against this:

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"We are not ready,
we don't have these resources."

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"What do we do if an inmate needs
a stuffed animal to be able to sleep?"

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Denmark made the same mistake.
Then they raised after two years.

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This won't help.

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That is an important point,
although it also fails.

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Denmark is an example where
lowered the age of criminal jurisdiction–

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–generally, for all children,
from 15 to 14.

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We have no interest in that whatsoever
off. We don't have such a problem.

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But we have 50 children under the age of 15 who are
involved in murder and murder plots.

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-Where is the limit for you?
- It is a very big problem.

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You have your own story
and you've had your troubles with the law.

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When you were 22 it got so serious
that you had to spend a year in prison.

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Can you tell us about that experience,
to end up in prison as a young person?

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There was so much black mold
in every ceiling, to begin with.

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My experience is 13–14 years ago.
It is not at all the same as today.

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I was young, just over
to sit in the youth department.

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The youth section itself was chaos.

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But I'm not the example.

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I had music, parents,
a goal, a dream, older siblings.

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I had parents
who could send money.

193
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-How was the food?
- It was okay.

194
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It is a human right.

195
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You don't dare ask mom for a twenty
- are you going to complain about the food in the prison?

196
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They will grow up and have children.

197
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,360
Imagine six guys in a room. That
it is enough that one of them is a psychopath.

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Half of them have ADHD, half
have autism, half have trauma.

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-But how is it at the Sis home?
- I don't know anything about Sis home.

200
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But only because the Sis homes are the worst
don't we need to throw them to Kumla.

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Ayan, what does it do to one's status
when you end up in jail?

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It's the older ones
who recruits the children lures along.

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It gives them more street cred
to throw them in jail.

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- "I have been sitting in Kumla."
-Just.

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The children are a product
of the environment in which they live.

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00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,880
It's not their fault
that they are like this.

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00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,440
It's about them not
have received support or people who see them.

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- Nobody wants to end up in prison.
-Sorry?

209
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- Nobody wants to end up in prison.
- Some want it. It's like a resume.

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- Yes, for these kids.
-Yes, if you have "sat one".

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I have sat one,
but that wasn't my plan.

212
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,720
I have also worked with young people,
with what many call gangster rap.

213
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,680
These artists, who were young then–

214
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:39,000
- my goal was to get them into the same
room. There were no recreational farms.

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00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,200
You have been a producer for Einár,
which was very famous.

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00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,040
Rest in peace, to all involved–

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– all who have passed away
in our suburbs, all young people.

218
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,040
I get upset when you say
that people... I looked at Santa–

219
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,120
-and hoped he would
would develop his brain enough–

220
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,880
– to stand up for right and wrong.
I've said that to thugs.

221
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,920
Their elders, whom you dare not
talk to, have I talked to.

222
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,200
They don't have time to get that far,
because they die.

223
00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:17,640
If you lock them up when they're 13,
who will teach them anything else?

224
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,160
You make them a criminal
superstar. Parallel society!

225
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,440
And what is your government doing?
You come with a whip, no carrot.

226
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,680
It would be wonderful if the 13-year-olds
who have problems at home–

227
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:39,760
-could the family home be placed somewhere
where there are no gang criminals.

228
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,160
But it is a utopia!
It won't happen.

229
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,480
I would not accept
a 13-year-old who has murdered.

230
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,960
That's you.
I know people who had done it.

231
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:56,120
Those who do are angels,
of which more are needed.

232
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,320
It takes a village
to take care of a child.

233
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,440
You wouldn't do that, though
there are many who had done it.

234
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,840
It's actually difficult
to find a family home already today.

235
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,000
Okay... Gunnar, go ahead.

236
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,120
Fewer and fewer want to stand up
as a family home.

237
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,880
It is a crime that is so serious
that it is risky and dangerous.

238
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,800
We have to do a lot of different things:
Tearing Down Privacy Barriers–

239
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,960
-so that school, police and social services
can work closer together.

240
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:32,320
Give social services new legislation
in order to be more preventive.

241
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,320
We look over the HVB homes,
we remodel the Sis homes.

242
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,520
That entire structure must be used
to prevent and prevent–

243
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,120
- that children, regardless of whether they are 13 or
16, ends up in serious crime.

244
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,480
But when you fail to do so,
one must ask the question:

245
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:55,920
What do you do with someone who is
a great risk to others and their lives–

246
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,880
–but which, it turns out–

247
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,000
–cannot break the destructive ones
the patterns on the social side?

248
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,040
What you are now talking about,
"it takes a village" and all that...

249
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,320
That village does not exist
in today's system, but…

250
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,400
It is provocative to say so,
from your angle.

251
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,160
If you look at the contents of that which
is to be built up, that village is built there.

252
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,920
You say it feels wrong in your stomach
to lock them up.

253
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:31,880
Yes. But it feels wrong in my stomach
when it comes to many problems.

254
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,680
Like, all referral bodies are against it.

255
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:41,560
Pretty much the entire legal profession,
your own corps, is against it.

256
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,840
It feels like what you guys are doing
can be considered a great experiment–

257
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:55,720
-which it might be. But that 13-year-olds
to be part of the experiment…

258
00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,280
- May I answer the question?
-What are they for? The Bar Association?

259
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,720
There are two parts.
I will be happy to answer the question.

260
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,000
So we have
an ongoing horrific experiment.

261
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,080
50 children last year
were involved in assassination plots.

262
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,840
You can call it that
quite a terrible experiment.

263
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,080
But it is not the state
who runs that experiment.

264
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,160
The state's inability to prevent
is the one. The second is...

265
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:30,040
So next time the state – you – do away
you again, will you lower to nine then?

266
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,200
Where is the limit? It is your responsibility!

267
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:39,760
I don't have any trouble taking them in at all
question marks directed at this.

268
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,200
But I listen very carefully
on the options:

269
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,080
A few million more–

270
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:51,440
– to the system which therefore neither
has stopped or prevented...

271
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,920
-Which system is it?
- That is the order of the day.

272
00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:01,840
Social services, HVB home, SiS home,
also the leisure centers for that matter.

273
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,320
Hanne, you used a word
in a text you wrote about this.

274
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:14,160
You wrote: “There are many
populist phrases in this debate."

275
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,480
What are you thinking then?

276
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,960
I refer to Gitta Sereney–

277
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,040
- a fantastic journalist
who is unfortunately dead now.

278
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,320
She has written about the British children
who committed horrendous murders–

279
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,120
- and was sentenced to prison. A girl
was eleven years old when she was granted life.

280
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:40,000
I was completely shocked that
an eleven-year-old can be sentenced to prison.

281
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,600
I feel exactly the same:
Children should be allowed to be children.

282
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,640
Children should not be in prison. But
then reality has caught up.

283
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:56,160
I feel a huge aversion to
the idea that children should be in prison.

284
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:02,920
But I also feel an aversion to
that children who shoot should go free.

285
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,600
It doesn't work. You have to do something.

286
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:12,640
If someone has a better idea, swallow
I the one, but I haven't found anyone.

287
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,400
We do want to solve the problem
together?

288
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:22,080
- But I don't think you do.
- But I'm a musician, habibti.

289
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,680
- I write songs about what I see.
- Fairly committed, though.

290
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:31,680
This is fascism in my book.
What do you think will become of society?

291
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:37,000
No, I want to say clearly. You can say
yours in the Riksdag, now it's my turn.

292
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,560
That 13-year-olds are locked up... I am
afraid of what society will become.

293
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,520
This is my country. I cherish
our country. "What shall we do now?"

294
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,240
I say "give them a hug".
You laugh.

295
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,200
But half of them certainly have
didn't even get rid of the virginity.

296
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:59,240
A kiss on the cheek might have changed that
their whole view of the world. Thanks!

297
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,920
Let that be the final word. Very nice.

298
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:08,360
-Give him that hug.
- I also want hugs to be distributed.

299
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,040
But we can't get around the fact that it exists
children who kill other children.

300
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,720
We fail to prevent them
end up there or break those patterns.

301
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,640
Now we move on. We will talk
a little more about punishment in general.

302
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,680
There has always been crime
and in response to that, a punishment.

303
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:35,240
But on the question of what we want to achieve
with the punishment there are different answers.

304
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,280
What is the purpose of punishment? One question
as posed by criminal history–

305
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,320
- and which is just as relevant today.
Retribution.

306
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,600
The Vikings' old idea of blood revenge
must be considered the original punishment itself.

307
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,720
If you knock out someone's tooth
in a fight–

308
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,160
- could be a reasonable punishment
that the state pulled out one of yours.

309
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,160
Protection. The most important argument
to keep criminals in cages–

310
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,560
–is the protection of society.

311
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:11,280
The standard on the cage, however, has been
debated over the centuries.

312
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,280
Deterrence. Through history
has the penalty been moved–

313
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,280
–from dark cells
and out into the streets and squares.

314
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,600
Awkward methods
as crucifixion and stake–

315
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,520
– are today fully digitized
and significantly more efficient.

316
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:34,160
Rehabilitation. By allowing prisoners
making ceramics and hand pouring candles–

317
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,840
- you equip them to one day
be integrated into a society–

318
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:43,080
- with a crying need for ceramics in particular
and hand-cast candles.

319
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Profiling. This is punishment
perhaps most important function.

320
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,560
To get it on the occasion sitting
the attorney general–

321
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:56,280
-to appear like a justice-
Minister shall: Effective.

322
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,880
Is this also about showing
power of action during an election year?

323
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,200
Not necessarily during an election year.

324
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:15,520
Politics is very much about
to be actionable.

325
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,800
But that doesn't mean
that you want to do bad things.

326
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,720
I'm thinking
that it is about justice.

327
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,680
Now we have talked a lot
about gang crime.

328
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,560
-To broaden the question...
-We take another noteworthy case:

329
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:37,880
The Nytorg man committed a series
rapes against very many women.

330
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,080
He received a low sentence,
five years or something.

331
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,160
Then he came out and committed
many new violent and sexual crimes.

332
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,680
Does punishment work? It depends
what problem you want to solve.

333
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800
He is probably completely immune
against being intimidated by punishment.

334
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,840
-And over 30 years.
-Certainly.

335
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,960
But you can also say this:

336
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:04,440
By locking him up for life
he cannot commit new sexual crimes.

337
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:10,240
I'm for that.
Your three strikes rule for sex crimes.

338
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,680
- I am against that.
-Why are you?

339
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,360
We can take it later.
Let Gunnar explain clearly.

340
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Our system has expired a lot
from the perpetrator.

341
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,000
Are there circumstances that speak for themselves?
for a lower penalty, you choose it.

342
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,400
Can prison be avoided?
should one do it.

343
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,160
It is reasonable
to reverse the perspective:

344
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,440
We must start from the victim's point of view
infringement and that remedy.

345
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,920
And then ask us the question:
"What does it take to protect society?"

346
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,200
I'm curious about what you said
earlier about the Nytorgsmannen.

347
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:55,960
This idea that one should
be able to... "Three strikes and out."

348
00:26:56,120 --> 00:27:04,120
It was called that when the US tried
introduce such a penalty provision.

349
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,720
- It is that...
-You get three chances, then it's just...

350
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:15,520
"Then we throw away the key and sheep
you sit there until you check in."

351
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,720
Much has been said about them
practical consequences of this.

352
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:28,880
That in ten years we will have
approx. 300 people per 100,000 inhabitants–

353
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,280
- who will be in prison in Sweden.

354
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:39,200
These are levels that are comparable
with Russia, Belarus and Turkey.

355
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,360
And then I wonder,
are these three countries famous for–

356
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,720
– to have
a functioning law enforcement?

357
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,720
It depends on who you ask.
Many are coming back from China–

358
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,960
-this nice place, and says
that they felt so safe in China.

359
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,880
Is that the society we want?

360
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:07,360
You are probably Sweden's most meritorious
Minister of Justice in modern times.

361
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,560
It would still be boring–

362
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,120
-if so then you are
which will dismantle our legal certainty.

363
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,920
I think
that it would be extremely boring.

364
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,080
I myself don't think it is
to dismantle the rule of law.

365
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,320
If you commit serious gang crimes,
and we do as in Denmark...

366
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,600
Because it affects both
crime victims and society at large–

367
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,240
- then it should lead to double punishment.

368
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,720
It is not
to dismantle the rule of law.

369
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,120
If we start by talking about why
it is a legal reform:

370
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,480
Yes, because it is carried out
at a speed–

371
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:58,200
– which goes against all form
of legally secure legislative process.

372
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,800
It is carried out...
And you know this criticism.

373
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,960
You know that
Uppsala University just before Christmas–

374
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,840
-couldn't answer your last one
asylum and immigration regulations–

375
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,360
– because they don't have time.

376
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,000
You want to carry out the reform with
a speed that is not legal.

377
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,680
- It has gone quickly.
- It depends on who you ask.

378
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,120
At home in Örnsköldsvik–

379
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,880
-are few who say:
"You do too much and too fast."

380
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,000
It depends on one's perspective.
This has been discussed in Sweden...

381
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,320
But according to the experts
has it gone too fast.

382
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,760
It has been discussed in
political debates for ten, fifteen years.

383
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,680
I'm surprised it has worked
so many years in terms of the sexual offenses–

384
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,560
- and that so little has happened. We have
received brutal examples in recent times.

385
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,560
During the Christmas holidays and so on.
Situations that make many wonder–

386
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,200
-how is it possible that they here
the people are out in society.

387
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:13,680
It is not an expression of one
primitive instinct to lock people up.

388
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,600
It is a general and quite reasonable
perception in humans.

389
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,840
But Ayan, when I ask the question
if all criminals can be rehabilitated–

390
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:31,520
- do you think there are some?
that just has to be locked?

391
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,680
I'm here for the kids.
For the 13-year-olds we're talking about.

392
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,160
I think, or know 100 percent that
they can receive support and rehabilitation.

393
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,600
How does it happen?
that they are recruited on social media?

394
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,920
Why doesn't the state, we in adult-
the world, the tech companies, more responsibility?

395
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,680
How come they can
control our children, but not us?

396
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,080
Why is it so easy for them?

397
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,320
-Talk to them via Snapchat.
- I don't know. Give them a hug.

398
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,680
-Snapchat shouldn't have a hug.
- No, the children!

399
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,800
Meet them, be in these areas.

400
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,240
The only time I see politicians
is when there are elections.

401
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,280
As soon as it's over, you disappear.
Where are you going?

402
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:25,200
I agree that it applies
to go on those who recruit.

403
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,440
We do that in a lot of different ways.

404
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,520
The police must take it down
recruitment ads.

405
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,760
We must lock up those who recruit
longer than before...

406
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,920
Even those who recruit should be locked up?

407
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,320
Unless they are 13-year-olds – absolutely!
Are you an adult, so...

408
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:50,160
If you think about consequences, you can understand
you on what you have done - absolutely.

409
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,120
Do you think that everyone can become a criminal?

410
00:31:54,280 --> 00:32:00,320
- It is almost a philosophical question.
-What is wrong with a philosophical question?

411
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,640
This is how you can say:

412
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,560
There are risk factors that do
that some are at greater risk.

413
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,320
After all, most people do
not criminals.

414
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,040
If you can walk from the Center for
justice to attorney general–

415
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,320
- then a criminal kid can
become Minister of Justice as well.

416
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,160
Your development has been enormous.

417
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,240
Center for Justice
is a foundation that was founded–

418
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,840
- to maintain legal certainty
between the state and the individual.

419
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,240
What you are doing now, crashing…
What words did you use?

420
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,440
-Gunnar founded the centre.
- I know!

421
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,880
Did SD give you the job?
It's their politics you're talking about.

422
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,400
-Have you changed? Made a trip?
- I would say this:

423
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,240
As for punishment
I haven't changed my mind.

424
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,720
I don't think it's that strange...

425
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,120
If you help individuals
who were subjected to overstepping by the state–

426
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:02,160
-isn't it so strange that also
starting from those who are exposed to crime.

427
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,240
-Now you are the state.
- I know.

428
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,280
It is more reasonable to omit
from the victim than the perpetrator.

429
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,640
However, I have changed my mind
on another point.

430
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,240
Nowadays, I think the police should have
much more powerful tools–

431
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,440
– to prevent and prevent
crime than I thought before.

432
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,600
So you've gone from being softer
to get tougher with...

433
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,160
I didn't talk much about punishment–

434
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,720
- I devoted myself to other issues
15, 20 years ago.

435
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,680
Those who have followed the Moderates know–

436
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:43,520
- that the Moderates have always thought
to severe punishment, when warranted–

437
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,440
– is right and fair. However,
to take a concrete example:

438
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,600
Today we let the police use covert
wiretapping to prevent crime.

439
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,600
It is a very far-reaching step.
I didn't think so ten years ago.

440
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,040
You talk a lot about crime victims
and to start from the crime victim.

441
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:11,920
The state's task in this, when we have to
decide how to retaliate–

442
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,560
–that is drawing up the line–

443
00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:20,320
– which keeps us away
that we reinstate the death penalty–

444
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,720
- which is absolutely the only one
reasonable retribution–

445
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,520
- if you yourself are a victim
for the most serious of crimes.

446
00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:34,640
-Hanne, completely short at the end.
- I agree with you.

447
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,600
The focus has shifted from
that it is a pity for the perpetrator–

448
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,680
–to that crime victim
shall receive redress.

449
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,880
I want to see another perspective.
We see the role of the crime victim in the United States.

450
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,560
Middle-aged daughters are asked
to this policeman–

451
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:58,560
- about Annika Östberg after 40 years
may have served his sentence?

452
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,280
She didn't even shoot,
she was with the boyfriend who shot.

453
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,080
They sit and cry and say, "No,
we'll never get our father back."

454
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:12,040
The courtrooms have become
some kind of therapy workshops–

455
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,120
-where you tell which one
amazing person the dead man was.

456
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,240
Completely uninteresting. It's just as much
murder to kill an unpleasant person.

457
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,320
I want to get rid of that completely.
I want to see society instead.

458
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,920
It should be a cool distance
from society's side–

459
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,960
-in the view of what constitutes rectification
for the crime victim.

460
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,800
This bloodlust is
a primitive instinct…

461
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,560
I don't want to be that one
who starts quoting ancient Greeks…

462
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:47,920
But now it's coming!

463
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:54,560
That is the task of law. To have one
objective distance to what is…

464
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,920
If you have society's perspective–

465
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,880
–then it means that
as far as possible rehabilitate.

466
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,200
Not only for the sake of the individual,
but for the sake of society.

467
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,600
We have checked with a thousand Swedes–

468
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,520
- a so-called statistically representative
selection, about their views on crime and punishment.

469
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:22,400
What are people thinking out there, for example
about prison for 13-year-olds?

470
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:28,800
Almost 6 out of 10 today think that prison
for 13-year-olds who commit serious crimes–

471
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,520
– may be necessary.

472
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,800
41 percent think that prison for
13 year olds are wrong in any case.

473
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,920
There are those who want to go even further.
Look here.

474
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,560
I get so lazy.

475
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:52,560
How many voters in the four largest
the parties think that children under 13–

476
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:57,240
- i.e. 12-year-olds and younger,
should be able to be imprisoned?

477
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,160
What is happening
with this country?

478
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,040
Again, it is so…

479
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,440
This is about the discussion we
for right now and as we have brought…

480
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,000
We have had this discussion
partly...

481
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:20,600
...as an immigration issue.
The formulation of the problem has been like this.

482
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:27,520
“How are we going to access
this problem?"

483
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,640
“The only way is for us to lock up
this person who is 13 years old."

484
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,360
"Besides, it's a person
like we never believe"…

485
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:42,560
“It's a rule that never comes
hit my child, only those children."

486
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,440
This is a basically–

487
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,200
– deeply problematic
and racist problem formulation.

488
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,280
Thank you!

489
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,840
-Finally!
- Then I just wonder...

490
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,840
–Ayan, first. You agree?
- Do you agree with Malin? 110 percent.

491
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,160
Then I wonder: Who are the most afraid
to go out in Sweden?

492
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,320
Whose children are shot dead?
In which parts of Sweden...

493
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,320
We know that insecurity is greater
in exposed areas.

494
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,160
In some areas, parents refuse
to the efforts of social services.

495
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,880
It is not that the problem picture
is Djursholm's or Bromma's.

496
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,760
That it is racist to want to do
something like that is a gross accusation.

497
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,040
And one more thing...
This is a loaded question.

498
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,560
All the questions raised are reasonable
and we must discuss them.

499
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:44,280
But if you want the whole picture,
then you should also bring...

500
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,680
For 50 years it has been talked about
to break the secrecy–

501
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,240
- so that you can enter earlier
and prevent this. Now it is done.

502
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,960
It goes pretty fast,
but it is necessary.

503
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:04,200
Social services get new tools,
We are doing something about the HVB and SIS homes.

504
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,320
That is also part of the answer
on a problem formulation...

505
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:16,040
But why set the limit at 13 years?
Why do you put it there?

506
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,880
We talked earlier
on the role of law and the rule of law.

507
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,200
In the rest of Europe it looks different.

508
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:30,080
We have 15, other countries have 14,
some have 13. Britain has 10.

509
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:34,760
When it comes to really serious crimes.
It is important to underline that.

510
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,240
It's about
to protect other people.

511
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:45,200
We move on. How effective think
the Swedes that prison really is?

512
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,160
Look here.

513
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,840
57 percent believe that one becomes more criminal
of being in prison.

514
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:59,120
But where is the limit for how hard?
Sweden wants to punish its criminals?

515
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:05,440
If you ask a thousand Swedes
about the harshest punishment, the death penalty–

516
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,400
– the answer will be like this:

517
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:14,480
- It's terrible.
- You can see to the far right...

518
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,400
A majority is in favor of the death penalty.
What do you think about it?

519
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,800
In our civilization we have chosen–

520
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:29,880
–to compensate for violations and
crime with lock-up, not execution.

521
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,680
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth - no.

522
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,760
This is the way of civilization
to handle conflicts in society.

523
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:45,800
Let's talk about what it's like in prison.
- You know little about it.

524
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,800
I'm curious about
if all this we have seen now means–

525
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,840
- that many people out there believe
that Swedish prisons are too comfortable.

526
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,080
The answers differ between the parties.

527
00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:07,880
On the right, your party also thinks -
60 percent – that they are too comfortable.

528
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,480
What do you think, Simon?

529
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,600
De har aldrig suttit i fängelse.
Det räcker med själva inlåsningen.

530
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,120
Efter 24 timmar börjar hjärnan
att gå sönder av själva inlåsningen.

531
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,800
You don't understand
vad det gör med en mentalt.

532
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,880
I sat inside by myself
när jag var alldeles för ung.

533
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:33,840
Men vad borde fångarna ha tillgång till
in prison? Look here.

534
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,920
Streamingtjänster, gym, bibliotek, mat-
alternativ, cigaretter och snus, musik.

535
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,000
Det är tydligen bara träning
and books that apply.

536
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:50,720
Only nine percent think that the prisoners
will be allowed to stream this program.

537
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:56,880
You can understand that, possibly.
But the previous picture…

538
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,800
- You work hard on that.
- Yes, we will block that.

539
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,560
The previous image...

540
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:08,880
I don't agree with those who say
that it is too cozy in the prison.

541
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:14,920
- But 60 percent of your voters do.
- Then I'm on a collision course with them.

542
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:21,720
The lockdown is important, but we have to
do good things with the locked up.

543
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:28,040
We're going to look at one of those actions
which is on the table.

544
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,880
The question is how much snus there is
in Estonian prisons.

545
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:39,760
The prisons in Sweden are full,
but one in Estonia is empty.

546
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:46,320
The plan is that Sweden from this summer
will send up to 600 prisoners to Tartu.

547
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,080
Does everyone there think it's a win-win?
We went there in advance.

548
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,880
We have two buildings for the inmates,
and one of them is empty.

549
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:14,360
It's probably the only one
empty prison building in Europe.

550
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,720
We hope that in six months
have a solution for that.

551
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,720
This is a typical cell.

552
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,800
It is about ten square meters in size–

553
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,960
- and accommodates a maximum of two inmates.

554
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,920
There is a bunk bed,
a place to sit–

555
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,760
-a table and a toilet.

556
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:49,520
In building E there is also a shower in the cell–

557
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,920
–with hot water available.

558
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,880
There is only one TV here

559
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,640
-but in the future
must there be a television per inmate.

560
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,400
In Sweden you don't drive Porsches
on the police anymore.

561
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,040
What would be a month here
turned 25 years old.

562
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:21,320
Not a single Estonian in my friend-
circuit thinks this is good.

563
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,680
Tartu is a very small city.
It is very calm and pleasant here.

564
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,520
Yes, the Swedish prisoners...

565
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:37,840
I think it's bad.
I don't think that makes sense.

566
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,120
It might be good,
but it's probably not that likely.

567
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,040
Swedish prisoners?
They will stay in Sweden.

568
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,320
The Estonian prisoners in Tartu
to be moved to other prisons.

569
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,480
-Hello. Have a good time this winter day.
-Thanks.

570
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:05,400
-What do you think about the rental?
- I don't like us being driven away.

571
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,480
That our relatives have to go
and visit us in Tallinn.

572
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,120
We do not accept women, youths–

573
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:19,760
–or criminals who are active
in organized crime.

574
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,480
We do not accept them
who have been convicted of terrorist offences.

575
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:31,240
We do not accept those who pose a threat
against the population of Estonia.

576
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:38,160
When was the last time you feared for your life
in Estonia? Never? That doesn't happen here.

577
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,520
It is said that the police do not dare to visit
certain neighborhoods in Malmö.

578
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:50,040
Do they just open the gate
and then they get to get home by themselves?

579
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,640
Do they stay here?

580
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,520
They are serving the middle part of their sentence here.

581
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:03,480
- No one is released here in Estonia.
- Does anyone want the Swedish prisoners here?

582
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:14,120
Without this project
should Tartu Prison probably be closed down–

583
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,920
-due to reduced number of inmates.

584
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,320
- Gunnar, you've actually been there.
-Yes.

585
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,640
They are picky about who they accept.

586
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,920
It hasn't been that difficult
to agree on it, actually.

587
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,760
We have no interest in that persons
who are active in a gang criminal environment–

588
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:47,200
–is located in another country.
Nor convicted of terrorist offences.

589
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,480
This is about other inmates.

590
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:58,640
This is not something that will come
to be used for convicts under the age of 18.

591
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,120
They are adults, convicted of other crimes
than gang crime and terrorism.

592
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:10,360
- Do you think it's good to...?
- It sounds like human trafficking.

593
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:15,320
No, I absolutely do not think so.
We must take care of our own people.

594
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,440
I am terrified of legal certainty
considering things like this.

595
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:26,240
Is it Sweden?
who is in charge of them now, right?

596
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,920
Like this...
Both will have responsibilities.

597
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,760
Sweden takes responsibility for the start
on serving the sentence–

598
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,960
-and the end
regarding the penalty.

599
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:45,160
The Estonians are responsible for the interim,
the time you are...

600
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,800
- Are they going to speak Estonian, then?
- No, you must speak English.

601
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,080
Those who don't know English, then?

602
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:57,680
Even in our prisons
we must master a number of different languages.

603
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,040
You can have different opinions,
seen from Sweden's point of view–

604
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,840
- but it is very high class
in the Estonian penitentiary.

605
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,320
It is very similar
the Swedish penitentiary service.

606
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,760
But what does this do?
with the image of Sweden in Estonia?

607
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:20,680
I think, honestly…
Not very much.

608
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,400
The problems we have, we have them.

609
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,320
We have a strong interest in
to be able to cooperate with other countries.

610
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:35,720
For a long time, a lot of Swedes arrived
Norway to work. It was a little...

611
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:42,520
Norway rented prison places in the Lower
the countries. At a very high price.

612
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,680
That's what we learned from, so we do it
in an efficient and good way.

613
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,840
We continue in the program...

614
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:57,200
You, Ayan, will also move on.
Thank you for being here. Ayan Ahmed.

615
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,880
Thanks.

616
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:05,000
We started the conversation by talking
about the very youngest criminals.

617
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:11,920
As a remand pastor meets our last guest
children suspected of serious crimes.

618
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:18,200
He has seen the wave of violence up close.
- Olle Jonasson, welcome here.

619
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,320
To try to tie the knot...

620
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:32,000
You meet these kids
who are 15 years and above. Who are they?

621
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:37,840
The last two years I have only worked
with children between 15 and 18 years old–

622
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,160
– because that group has grown.

623
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,240
We didn't see it that way
a few years ago.

624
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,120
It is a new phenomenon.

625
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,600
It's not just the town kids,
there are "Svensson children" too–

626
00:49:53,760 --> 00:50:00,440
– which is drawn
to this romance around…

627
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,800
They may not need the stealers, though
there is a romance surrounding the gangs.

628
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,240
There is a huge breadth of
who are sitting there.

629
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:16,960
-What types of crimes have they committed?
- Serious crimes, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

630
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:23,320
It's attempted murder,
gun crime or...

631
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:29,120
Whether you have succeeded or not...
They are quite inexperienced as children–

632
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,640
- so they fail, thank God,
quite often.

633
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,800
Then they have time to think
when they sit there. So you can say.

634
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:44,160
Do you feel that they understand what they
have been involved in and are now involved in?

635
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:48,880
No. Only when they sit there,
after a while, they wake up.

636
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:55,400
What they have exposed themselves to,
their families, others.

637
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,040
It will come after a while,
so to speak.

638
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,880
My main tool as a pastor
is the duty of confidentiality.

639
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,880
They come from...
where silence is concerned–

640
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:15,560
– and they trust it. It has struck
me so many times, that they do.

641
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:19,280
- Do they understand the concept of confidentiality?
- Yes, right away.

642
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,080
I have not met a single one who
do not understand that the pastor is silent.

643
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:29,600
What can they tell you? You will
not to breach confidentiality, but...

644
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,920
I usually get
their whole story in their lap.

645
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,640
It can apply to everything from...

646
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,840
They sit there incredibly stressed.
"How did I end up here in green clothes?"

647
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,040
"I can't call home,
it's full restrictions."

648
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,640
"20 hours out of 24, locked up."

649
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:58,160
Thin teenagers
which has barely come into the goal break.

650
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,600
I say, "How did you end up here?"

651
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,440
Then I get the whole story, usually.

652
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:11,360
And the arrest
has also been dramatic. Often.

653
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,880
Into the family, full police force...

654
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,920
And I understand that.
The police take no risks.

655
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:28,040
There are so many weapons in circulation.
Then they ask if they can call mom.

656
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:34,640
That says something about the span,
between the suspicion of serious crime–

657
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:41,160
-to ask for mother. “Sheep
I call?" "No, you won't."

658
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,560
Are they afraid?

659
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:52,040
No, some can even feel
relief when they arrive in custody.

660
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:58,480
There is a lot of threat,
force, coercion, to recruit.

661
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:05,080
Unbelievably much. So then they can feel:
"I can finally relax."

662
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:12,840
Besides asking for mommy,
how do you tell they are children?

663
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:18,120
For the very reason that I said,
that they ask for mother.

664
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,480
"When do I get to leave here?"

665
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:27,040
“No, you must not leave here
for a long time, you see." "Huh?"

666
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:32,880
So, you have... I heard
your discussion of consequentialism.

667
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,160
They haven't.

668
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,920
The prevention we are talking about...

669
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:45,680
It comes then, when you wake up
in custody. Then it wakes up.

670
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:50,560
"So, I ended up here?"
It is there…

671
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:55,520
I find it hard to believe
to scare them before.

672
00:53:55,680 --> 00:54:00,600
It does not work with general prevention,
but it is when you sit–

673
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:06,840
- as you realize what you have exposed
himself and others for. So it is.

674
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:13,480
Early in your life you worked in
war zones in Uganda, also with children.

675
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,480
- Do you see any similarities?
-Yes.

676
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:22,880
They were orphans, and sometimes are
the children in the towns are also orphans.

677
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,040
They seek other authorities.
There were the child soldiers…

678
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:34,280
The army was their belonging,
it was their family.

679
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:40,040
There are parallels here.
"Where do I find my security?"

680
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:45,000
When the war was over,
what would these children do then?

681
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:51,040
They received help in special schools
to reestablish their borders.

682
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,680
They must reclaim borders–

683
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,440
-in respect for others, themselves
and third parties.

684
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,040
You need help there.

685
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,480
Adults here in our country, wake up everyone!

686
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:10,960
Look up from your cell phones.
See your children!

687
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:18,680
Gunnar... When you hear Olle
sit and talk about this…

688
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:24,120
You have said
that somehow this is–

689
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:30,800
-one last try,
to lower the penalty limit, for example.

690
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,120
What are you thinking?

691
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,840
First I want to say thank you
to Olle and others–

692
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:42,760
—who have these indispensable roles
in our correctional system.

693
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,600
You work with 15–17 year olds–

694
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:52,320
-but we know from experience that
the mourners are incredibly important.

695
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:57,520
As you describe it, the duty of confidentiality
makes us offer a free zone–

696
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,440
- in a very vulnerable position.
That is the first.

697
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,920
-And surely it will become more important?
-Really.

698
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:12,040
Man has an important role in your role
regardless of who is in custody.

699
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,880
But when we talk about minors
then it is particularly significant.

700
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,760
What is the most important thing you can say
to a 15-year-old in custody?

701
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,480
I usually use a picture of the gps.

702
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,840
You can get lost in life.
"What does the GPS say then?"

703
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,680
It says: "Make a U-turn."

704
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,520
"What do you mean, where do you want to go?"

705
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:46,920
"You're sitting here in green clothes.
You see the bar for the window here."

706
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:52,240
"Is this where you want to be?"
"No, it isn't."

707
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,360
Then it is a first entry.

708
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,840
"Can you say you've gotten lost?"
"Yes, indeed."

709
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:06,360
Then I have an input there,
without going on them too hard.

710
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,400
You can admit that you got lost.

711
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:15,160
Olle, we'll let that be the last word.
Thank you for joining us here tonight.

712
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,680
Thanks to Hanne and thanks to Gunnar.

713
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:25,720
Thanks to you, Simon, and thanks to Malin.
We'll be back from here in a week.

714
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,240
Thanks a lot, corner.

715
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,720
The biggest difference between Sweden's
and our system is probably the smoking.

716
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:40,040
We have banned smoking
and snuff products–

717
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:45,880
-but according to the agreement, snus will be provided
be available to Swedish inmates.

718
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,040
Translation:
M. Bach, E. Enström and J. Jakobsson
Swedish media text for SVT